Guest Post: Concerns About Pornography as We Move Forward

Note from Josh: This week, I welcome my fellow Maine resident, Jane Ives to the site to share some wonderful pieces she’s written. This is her final piece this week and I just want to take the opportunity to thank Jane for allowing me to reprint some of her terrific articles and sharing her perspective and research.

New research about the impact of pornography challenges churches and other community institutions to provide more up-to-date information about its potential harm.

“Pornography is a social toxin that destroys relationships, steals innocence, erodes compassion, breeds violence, and kills love. The issue of pornography is ground zero for all those concerned for the sexual health and wellbeing of our loved ones, communities, and society as a whole.” So begins the Pornography & Public Health Research Summary published by the National Center on Sexual Exploitation on August 17, 2017.1 At the same time, other research indicates increased public acceptance of pornography, especially among younger generations. For example, a 2014 by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) found that 45 percent of Millennials, the first generation to grow up with unlimited exposure to pornography through the internet, said viewing pornography is “morally acceptable,” compared to 9 percent of Americans ages 68 and older.2

Pornography “poses a serious threat to couple intimacy and relationship harmony,” according to Drs. John and Julie Gottman. “Pornography can lead to a decrease in relationship trust and a higher likelihood of affairs,” they wrote on their website, noting that porn sites often subtly or directly encourage sexual activity outside of marriage.3 Pornography use has been closely linked with infidelity, which is one of the most common reasons given for divorce. Another study concludes that persons exposed to large amounts of pornography are likely to feel less satisfied with their real-life partners, feel less committed to existing relationships, and increasingly accept promiscuity as natural and marriage less desirable.4

Pornography is highly addictive, literally hijacking the pleasure centers of the brain, especially when viewed by the young, and is easily accessible on the internet and in magazines. Brain scans of addicted users show alarming changes. Many popular publications, such as Cosmopolitan, Penthouse, and Playboy magazines, provide content that can readily be classified as “soft porn,” presenting sexual activity as casual dating behavior quite divorced from love and commitment.

If we want a society in which marriages and families thrive, we need to do more teaching about commitment, self-discipline, and effective relationship skills, while talking openly about the damaging effects of pornography on relationships. Resources for teaching about the dangers of pornography and for working to limit access to it can be found in the following articles on the UM Discipleship Ministries website:

https://www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/facing-up-to-pornography-and-sexual-addictions

https://www.umcdiscipleship.org/resources/protecting-our-children

 

References:
1file:///Users/janeives/Documents/1%20Current%20Projects/Pornography/NCOSE_PornographyPublicHealth_ResearchSummary_8-2_17_FINAL-with-logo.pdf
2 https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/family-profiles/hemez-attitudes-marital-infidelity-fp-16-12.html
3 https://www.gottman.com/blog/an-open-letter-on-porn/
4 Kyler Rasmussen, “A Historical and Empirical Review of Pornography and Romantic Relationships: Implications for Family Researchers,” Journal of Family Theory and Review, Volume 8, Issue 2, p. 173-191

 

Jane P. Ives, Marriage and Family Ministries Consultant (8/30/15) 10 Quaker Lane, Portland, ME 04103, 207-210-7876, Janepives@gmail.com Copyright United Methodist Discipleship Ministries, http://www.umcdiscipleship.org -Used by Permission

For more articles like this, please visit www.marriagelovepower.net

 

 

Guest Post: When a Spouse Has Suffered from Childhood Sexual Abuse

Note from Josh: This week, I welcome my fellow Maine resident, Jane Ives to the site to share some wonderful pieces she’s written. I think that regardless of where you are in your addiction, or if you’re not addicted and just starting to learn, Jane provides some incredibly valuable information and resources here.

 

In response to a call from a distraught husband whose wife had just begun therapy for childhood sexual abuse, I asked a member of the sexual abuse prevention organization Darkness to Light (www.D2L.org) to recommend some resources. I received a detailed description of the recovery process, book recommendations for the husband, and websites where he could find an appropriate therapist. Mindful of my ignorance about this issue, I read the books and visited the websites to learn how to offer him understanding, encouragement, and hope.

I learned the importance of listening compassionately when someone begins to talk about traumatic childhood experiences. Although we might react initially with shock and horror, survivors need to know that someone believes them, and they need assurance that whatever happened was not their fault. Many are already deeply wounded by the disbelief and denial of those who should have protected them, and we do not want to add to that damage just because we have heard stories of false accusations and distorted memories.

I also learned that it is urgent to help persons impacted by child sexual abuse find qualified therapists. A survivor needs to work with an effective therapist who understands the impact of child sexual abuse, preferably a certified sex therapist also certified in EMDR (www.emdr.com), a highly effective tool for gentle emotional memory processing. The spouse of the survivor will need a therapist experienced in dealing with these issues too, and the couple will also need to work together with a trained couples therapists experienced in dealing with child sexual abuse issues and with whom they both feel comfortable.

Wikipedia defines Child Sexual Abuse as any attempt by an adult or adolescent to use a child for sexual stimulation, perhaps by indecent exposure, display of pornography, sexual talk, sexual contact, or production of pornographic materials involving the child. The Darkness to Light website indicates that one out of every four women and one out of every six men will be sexually abused by the age of 18. Many survivors of child sexual abuse repress memories of such experiences until triggered by some life event, such as the birth of a child or the death of the perpetrator, or by their own readiness to face the truth. Survivors and their families are usually traumatized when they realize and begin to recall what actually happened.

Laura Davis and Ellen Bass, in The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse, note that the healing process often does not begin until after the age of 30. The surfacing of repressed memories can cause acute emotional upheaval and acting-out behaviors. Survivors must work actively for healing, participating in therapy for sorting out whatever details and feelings they can recall. They need to release their sense of shame by talking about happened, especially if they were accused of lying or were threatened to keep the abuse secret. They need to understand that they were in no way at fault, that the abuser is entirely to blame, and that they can trust their own perceptions, feelings, and intuitions. Confronting the abuser and those who failed to protect them, if possible, can provide a dramatic breakthrough, but most of all survivors need to forgive themselves for the mistaken belief that they “let” the abuse happen. Some find release in forgiving the abuser, but this is not always possible.

In the meanwhile, however, the spouses or partners of survivors go through their own trauma, wondering if their relationships will ever be the same. They may experience distancing by the survivor and will usually need to allow space for the healing to take place. They will need support to remain strong, patient, and hopeful when pushed away by their loved one and treated as the enemy. Most will have their own issues to deal with, for which a trained therapist is essential, but good friends and support groups can listen when they need to vent and offer empathy without encouraging destructive behavior.

Given the statistics, many congregations are likely to have members who have experienced Child Sexual Abuse. Spirituality can play an important role in healing, but those who would facilitate healing need to understand the impact on persons of the betrayal of their childhood innocence and trust. Pastors and other church leaders will find the following resources helpful for locating appropriate therapists and for offering survivors and their families understanding and support.

 

Resources

Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child, by Laura Davis (NY: HarperCollins Publisher, 1991). The author, a nationally recognized workshop leader and expert in healing from child sexual abuse, provides partners of survivors with clear insight into the challenging dynamics of their relationships. She notes that while healing is possible, it is not easy or quick, and she offers sound practical advice for both self-care and relationship healing.

Ghosts in the Bedroom: A Guide for Partners of Incest Survivors, by Ken Graber, (Deerfield Beach, FL: Health Communications, Inc., 1991). The author describes his wife’s growing realization that she was an incest survivor and his realization, when she sought out a therapist to help her heal, that he had issues he needed to work on as well. He describes clearly the thoughts and feelings he experienced during this process, which were confirmed by other participants in support groups for Partners of Sexual Abuse Survivors, and he offers sound advice for coping with and growing through such an experience.

The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse, by Ellen Bass and Laura Bass. The authors intersperse descriptions of the dynamics and impact of child sexual abuse with explicit and dramatic stories of some of the many survivors with whom they have worked. They discuss how children cope with these experiences, how memories surface, and the different stages of recovery, as well as what they need in order to heal: assurance that the abuse was not their fault, that someone believes them, that healing is possible, that their feelings of grief and anger are accepted. The authors also address the concerns of partners, family members, and counselors and provide an extensive list of healing resources, including books, organizations, support groups, and counseling.

The Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Relationship: How to Support Your Partner and Keep Your Relationship Healthy, by Diane England, Ph.D. (Avon, MA: Adams Media, 2009). The author explains how a traumatic event can overwhelm a person’s ability to cope and cause ongoing fight-or-flight symptoms and other acting out, even when danger no longer exists. Whether someone’s distress results from war, natural disasters, or physical or sexual abuse, trauma deeply affects his or her partner and other members of the family. The author describes therapeutic options and provides practical helps.

Victims No Longer: The Classic Guide for Men Recovering from Sexual Child Abuse, by Mike Lew (New York: HarperCollins Publishers Inc., 2004) Written by a psychotherapist/sexual abuse counselor, this book speaks to the needs of male survivors of incest and sexual abuse.

http://www.siawso.org (Survivors of Incest Anonymous)

http://www.supportforpartners.org (Support for Partners of Child Sexual Abuse Survivors)

 

Jane P. Ives, Marriage and Family Ministries Consultant (8/30/15) 10 Quaker Lane, Portland, ME 04103, 207-210-7876, Janepives@gmail.com Copyright United Methodist Discipleship Ministries, http://www.umcdiscipleship.org -Used by Permission

For more articles like this, please visit www.marriagelovepower.net

 

Pornography Cannot Become Just Another Political Issue

When I’m up with the dogs at 5:30 a.m., letting my wife sleep an extra hour because she has to head for a job outside the house and I have a leeway in catching a nap if need-be, I’ll browse headlines in the Google News feed. I rarely ever read stories unless it’s good news, but an article on pornography was featured today and I’m not sure what to think.

I stopped reading halfway through to be honest because there wasn’t a ton of substance to it. Essentially it said that there are a small handful of Republican members of Congress who have been making waves about doing “something” about pornography. It talked about how this issue was more one of the radical liberals in the 1970s and 80s, but seems to have evolved as the other side’s cause in recent years.

Most of you know my stance on the pornography industry. You can’t fight it. Much like prohibition, it would be destined to fail. And unless it involves children or animals, porn may be immoral or unhealthy, but it’s not illegal. I don’t want the government defining what is or isn’t pornography. That’s not its role. Pornographic magazines are failing not because of any government interference. They’re dying because print media as a whole is collapsing. Let the market define its needs.

I would like to see an embrace of some kind of health curriculum in schools that makes basic pornography addiction education mandatory. A middle school teacher could literally spend only 30 minutes on it in one class per semester and I believe it could change a generation. If Congress is willing to pony up the money for that, I don’t care if it’s a Republican or Democrat; it’s a bill I can get behind.

As an ex-journalist, my former life before recovery was consumed with news and like almost everybody with access to social media, I didn’t mind sharing my opinions on whatever the topic of the day was. I think that was done far more to see myself pontificate and get like-minded people to tell me how right I was vs. truly changing anyone’s mind.

In recovery, I largely limit myself to headlines and stay off all social media except LinkedIn. I suppose I have my website to expound on issues, but it’s still 97% politics-free. I do this because despite my disconnect, which has moved me even further into the middle of the political spectrum, it has certainly not been lost on me that this country is divided more than anytime I can remember.

Now, it doesn’t worry me too much. As a student of history, this is a cyclical occurrence, not an anomaly. If you think politics seems bad now, go read the Hamilton biography by Ron Chernow upon which the musical was based. That was a disgusting, divided time that makes today seem much more civil. I guess it can and may get worse, but I don’t worry about it bouncing back eventually.

Unfortunately, the issues of pornography, pornography addiction and pornography addiction education are coming along during this time of people dividing into little tribes and circling the wagons. I’ve mentioned this before, and I think most people truly in the middle agree, but there’s very little difference between the two political parties except for the small details. Both sides act completely boorish, make unintelligible statements, pander to their base and are far more about power than figuring out solutions. You’ll know if you’re one of these people if you immediately thought, “That’s not me! That’s the other side!” Sorry, buddy, it’s also you.

I’m concerned that if conservatives take up this cause right now, liberals will fight it simply because they feel they’re supposed to fight whatever conservatives want. Similarly, if the liberals were to take up porn, whatever position they took would be opposed by the conservatives not because of facts, but because that’s just the way things are done today.

I know I have people from both sides of the aisle who read my articles, and plenty of folks in the middle, too. I urge you, do not make whatever fight against pornography that may be on the horizon a political one. I know that’s easier said than done, but there are some issues that should bridge the political gap.

Do not let your party affiliation dictate your stance on pornography and if you’re active in your political community (boy, I don’t miss those days) be a voice of reason. If your side is for it, reach out to the other side. They’re probably not against it – just against the idea of agreeing with you. If your side is against it, explain to your brethren why this may be an issue that needs partisan walls to come down. And let’s be honest, you don’t want to be on the side that is trying to frame the argument pornography is not a problem. There’s far too much data against that position…although facts and data just don’t mean what they once did.

This cannot turn into just another political issue. It’s too important.

 

Should Those Who Look at Underage Pornography Be Allowed to Tell Their Therapists Without Fear of Consequences?

I was about three years into recovery, taking part in a group therapy session when the therapist said something in passing that caught my attention. He mentioned that in Maine, if a patient reports that they have looked at underage pornography and the therapist does not deem them to be a threat to act-out in a hands-on manner, that behavior does not have to be reported to authorities.

As I’m sure you know there are plenty of behaviors that have to be reported, like threat to commit suicide, plans to hurt another person, certain deviant illegal behavior, etc. But in Maine, there is no provision for reporting the use of underage pornography.

I bring this up because yesterday in the Los Angeles Times, there was an article about how their therapists are mandated to report the use of underage pornography and that the law is being challenged by therapists and therapists’ groups because they don’t think they should be reporting these people outside of their office if they pose no danger.

It’s an interesting debate and I’m not completely sure which side I fall on.

A quick recap of my story

Unless you’re new here, you know that I was arrested in early 2014 for illegal behavior in a chatroom that happened in late 2013. I encouraged a girl who I was unaware at the time was underage to perform sex acts on herself. At the end of our session, I created two screen captures as “trophies.” I’m not going to turn this into a giant rehash of exactly what happened or include my typical disclaimers about blaming myself, not the addiction. You can find them many places on this site.

It was obvious to the judge I wasn’t a serial offender but rather an ill person who took strides to get better, but you can’t do what I did and get away with it. I think a lot of discretion was shown in the fact I only served six months compared to what I could have done.

I appreciate that discretion. I was a guy who made a terrible mistake, not a pedophile, child stalker or anything of that ilk.

In the six years since the crime took place, I’ve been called a pedophile twice. It wasn’t out of malice. It was out of generally not understanding what the term means.

A pedophile is somebody who is attracted to children above the age of infant, but who have not yet reached puberty. There is also a difference between a pedophile and a criminal. Not all pedophiles are criminals. Most never act out on their attraction.

Both in rehab and as part of the ongoing legal case, I took several assessments to test for my likelihood of recidivism. It was as non-existent as the tests could score.

The fact my victim was underage was not lost on anyone, but based on the fact I’d done similar things in chat rooms with over a dozen adult women and the teenager in question could realistically pass for an adult, I was not cast a sex offender with a taste for underage girls, which was entirely correct.

Meeting the offenders

All of that said, when I was released from jail, I was court-mandated to participate in a weekly meeting of people who were on probation and had similar crimes. There were a few guys, like me, who I believe just made horrible mistakes. There were also several guys who – in a non-contact way – had been acting on their pedophilic tendencies for quite sometime before being arrested, sentenced and released.

Some of them were too ashamed to ever talk in any detail about it and others genuinely wanted to get beyond it and move on to having normal lives. Having spent a year seeing these men weekly (I was moved to a different group that only met monthly after a year – again, deemed no risk to re-offend) I felt like I got to know them on a personal level and I got the feeling that they couldn’t be “cured” but that they could develop the tools to not succumb to their attraction.

These men didn’t talk in graphic terms of what they saw in the underage pornography they looked at or why they were attracted to it, but I can’t remember a single one who struck me as the kind of person who would take that attraction off the computer screen and actually harm a child. Most clearly had co-occurring addictions and/or mental health disorders and it seemed like the pornography they used was a certain way to cope, leaning toward their pathology.

This is largely what they are arguing in California. A passage from the LA Times article that ran Monday, December 9, 2019:

 

Sharon O’Hara, a Los Angeles County therapist who began her career treating rape survivors, said people “with true porn addictions tend to look at everything.”
“They are looking for intensity,” she said. “It is the intensity and shock value” they seek.
She compared them to people who play violent video games but lack a propensity for violence in real life.
Ira Ellman, one of several scholars who joined a friend-of-the-court brief in the case, said the state law is based on misconceptions.
“Half of the people who molest children don’t test positive for pedophilia, and a lot of people who do test positive for pedophilia are almost at zero risk for molesting a child,” said Ellman, a retired law and psychology professor from Arizona State University and now a scholar at UC Berkeley’s Center for the Study of Law and Society.
The scholars cite a federal government study that followed men whose only sexual offense was viewing child pornography and found that 96.4% committed no contact sexual crime during an 8½-year follow-up period. A 2010 study found that “online offenders rarely go on to commit contact sexual offenses.”
Therapy may not be able to change a person’s sexual interest in minors, Ellman said, but it can help someone control impulses and avoid criminal acts.
People who molest children are likely to have antisocial personality traits, including lack of empathy, the scholars said, and therapists can identify them.
“I am not suggesting there is nothing wrong with looking at pictures of kids,” Ellman said. “Obviously, the creation of such a picture requires horrible abuse of a child. Everybody agrees that is a horrible thing.”

What to do?

I could present another dozen statistics that are in line with what these experts from the LA Times article are saying. There really is no connection between a hands-off crime leading to hands-on crimes. The link has never been made.

Here’s where the whole thing may fall apart for me. The people looking at the underage pornography are still consumers. Most never purchased it, but they are creating the demand for the product. If there was nobody who wanted to see the stuff, it stands to reason that far less would be made, right?

Any child who appears in any of those photos is a victim. Sure, maybe it’s not a violent sex act, but a “harmless” photo of them on a nude beach from a vacation in 2008. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being naked on a beach where it is allowed, but I do think there is a problem with posting a photograph of anybody – child or adult – at one of those beaches in a state of undress without their consent.

If a nude photo of me from a beach ended up on the Internet now, I probably wouldn’t fret too much. However, if I had been 13 or 14 in one of those photos and it fell into the wrong hands of people I knew when I was in my 20s, I could see some severe long-term PTSD happening and a life with more therapy than I’ve already needed. The reality is, I can’t imagine a situation where any child, no matter what is happening in the photograph itself, provided their consent.

If somebody is perpetuating this underground network of underage pornography to continue, that’s a crime. Perhaps if they are downloading pictures and videos from peer-to-peer networks there is no supplier making money, but should the producer making money be our litmus test to determine if this is wrong? No. Looking at underage pornography is wrong. We all know this.

From a philosophical standpoint, everything I just argued makes sense, but in reality, reporting every consumer of underage pornography in California – heck, reporting every consumer in America – is not going to end the international problem and do we want to clog up our court system with people who clearly need rehabilitation, not incarceration? If a therapist reports their client for admitting to look at underage pornography, you risk potentially moving the client from an environment of rehabilitation into one of incarceration. Isn’t that exactly not what is best? The perfect-world philosophy and real-world circumstances are clearly at odds here.

Should California look the other way at perpetuating this underground industry, as Maine does, under the guise that the consumer will likely not physically offend? Isn’t it better, as many of the experts believe, that the patient feel comfortable enough to share this information and address their issue before it gets worse? If they can be given tools to fight their urges now, the situation may not worsen in the future, but if they know they’ll end up being reported to authorities, there is no incentive for them to share their tendencies, which will likely continue without therapeutic attention.

This feels like one of those situations where this is no clear-cut correct answer and you’re almost picking the least of two evils. I just go back and forth on which option is the lesser of the two.

 

 

 

Plotting a Revolution: Leenaarts’ New Book Brings Unique Twist to Introspection

A personal note before I get to the main body of this book review:

They say when it rains it pours and I guess when it comes to my life and books, this is the week of the Noah’s Ark-like storm. Obviously, I was thrilled and excited with the fact that my new book was released earlier in the week, but I’m also excited to share with you a book project that I played 0.0002% in.

Jason Leenaarts, who I met through his podcast when I was guest last year, has just released a fantastic daily devotional-like book for those who want to spend the next year focusing on their health, both inside and outside. I am so proud to contribute two quotes to the book (June 21 and August 7, if you’re scoring at home).

If the name sounds familiar, it’s because I highlighted his website when I wrote the very popular 10 Blogs I Love That You Should Follow, But Probably Don’t Know About

Anyway, here is my more formal review of a book I hope you’ll consider picking up:

_________________________________________________

Before I appeared on my first podcast in late 2017, I had never listened to any and now that my job title could be “professional podcast guest” I hate to admit that there are very few I continue to listen to after my one-and-done. As a guest who speaks about a delicate subject – pornography addiction – I make it a point to listen to pieces of at least a couple of episodes before I ever appear on somebody’s podcast. Jason Leenaarts’ Revolutionary You! was no different.

I loved what I heard. It wasn’t going to be another dreary appearance on a strictly-addiction show. I listened to a guy who lost 200 pounds and another who had to deal with the unique situation of physically training celebrities. Jason did such a great job being present in the moment, talking to the guest like they were the most important person in the world. So, I went for it and there I was, front and center, sharing my story with a unique audience on Episode 156.

Appearing on Revolutionary You! gave me the confidence to know I could appear on non-addiction shows and share the greater themes and lessons of my experience. Jason and I kept in casual touch, and I remained a regular listener because he continued with fascinating guests and great conversation.

Jason contacted me earlier this year with a bit of a random request. He wanted to know if he could use two quotes from my episode for a book he was working on. I said sure and aside from the occasional update, never thought much about it until he sent me a copy, which is now available on Amazon.

I was absolutely floored at the creative presentation of A Revolution A Day: Daily Musings and Motivations for The Health Enthusiast. Jason combed through hundreds of hours of archives from his podcast and pulled his favorite quotes from around 200 episodes.

Set up like a daily devotional, each day begins with the quote from a guest and the episode they appeared on. This is nice because you can always go to the Internet and listen to that episode if a quote is of particular interest. The quote may be about diet, exercise, mindfulness, society, science, self-improvement, general lifestyle, or in my two contributions, addiction. While the quote may have some specificity to it, Jason write a paragraph under the quote giving it a broader meaning and making it relevant to every reader.

Then, Jason asks the reader to reflect on the quote and his expansion of the idea with two or three follow-up questions and enough room to write a decent answer. Not only does the reader get a fantastic quote, an interpretation and introspective questions, but also a space to actually become part of the book itself.

For instance, my June 21 quote is: “I’ve got a lot of different coping mechanisms and one of the best ones is to get up and leave the situation.” In context, I was talking about triggers that come with early recovery. Jason expands the idea, talking about all temptation and the need to change one’s scenery to disrupt ingrained patterns of behavior. He then asks: “What needs to change in your environment? Where do you feel the most pressure to succumb to your areas of weakness? How can you change that?”

Those are great questions I want to answer in regard to my professional life and not always carrying my fair share of the load at home. With the way Jason expands the concept, it really isn’t about addiction triggers – unless you want it to be.

A Revolution A Day is really about the revolution always going on inside of you and pausing to recognize it. I don’t know if Jason thinks there’s a best time of day for the reader to enter their thoughts, but I plan on making my daily entry in the late afternoon or early evening, when I transition from my professional endeavors to my home life. That’s one of my more chaotic times of mindset shift and I think this book will help ease from one life focus into the other.

I’ve looked ahead in the book and can’t wait to put my thoughts down on some of the topics, but I wonder if come next November I’ll feel the same way on things. I think that’s part of the revolution aspect to the book; you’re not the same person from day-to-day.

Let me make it clear I don’t get a dime whether Jason sells 5 books or 5 million, nor do I have any affiliate links, but I think this might be the perfect kind of book for someone who wants to journal or keep a diary, but just doesn’t know where to start. If I was this kind of person, I might pick up several copies. I think comparing the you from 2020 to the you in 2023 would be fascinating and the format of this book makes it easy.

If you happen to be reading this review just after I wrote it, this book is a perfect holiday gift, but I think it would also be a wonderful present for birthdays and other life transitions like becoming a new parent or a graduation. It screams “thoughtful” and for those of us who head straight to the customer service counter for a gift card, this book will score some points – even if the gift is to yourself.

If you’d like to see the book on Amazon, click Here
If you’d like to hear my appearance on Revolutionary You! click Here

Screen Shot 2019-12-05 at 5.34.06 PM